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  1. #11
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    Default

    Must admit that I have never heard of this either. When we did our stability inclining tests in Aberdeen we had to do it with the boat full of fuel , water , ice , boxes and gear ( think it was to make sure we were tested in as close to normal sailing from harbour conditions as possible ).

    I've never heard of the DTi going out into the bay and measuring roll speed/rates onboard any fishing boats at all.

    Anyone else know , or heard , of anything like this ??

  2. #12
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    Default Trident families’ weather expert is disallowed

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1463888

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    By Jamie Buchan

    Published: 02/11/2009

    Relatives of fishermen who died in one of Scotland’s worst trawler disasters said they were left “deeply disappointed” by a sheriff’s decision not to allow their expert witness to speak at a new inquest into the tragedy.

    A long-awaited hearing is under way to determine why the Peterhead-registered Trident sank off the coast of Caithness in 1974.

    Many of the relatives of the seven crewmen who died believe the boat sank because of her instability. They have never accepted the findings of an investigation 34 years ago, which ruled that she foundered after being hit by a huge wave.

    The inquiry, held in Aberdeen, was halted last week when advocate Richard Anderson, representing some of the crew’s families, asked for permission to question a weather expert.

    But Sheriff Principal Sir Stephen Young ruled against his motion and evidence was heard from another weather expert instead.

    Stephen Barstow, senior project scientist with Fugro Oceaner, co-authored a report analysing and estimating the wind, wave and weather conditions at the Time of the Trident’s sinking.

    He told the inquiry a storm had been blowing for about 12 hours and the crew would have been battling gale-force seven or eight winds.

    Last night, Jeannie Ritchie, who lost her husband and father in the tragedy, said: “We are deeply disappointed that our weather expert could not be heard. We feel that this was a very unfair move.

    “Mr Barstow was unable to speak about conditions in the exact area where the Trident went down, and we believe our expert would have been able to shed more light on that.”

    The inquiry, at Aberdeen Town House, continues tomorrow.

    Read more: http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Art...#ixzz0VjjMq0JM

  3. #13

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    Reference the "dynamic stability test" I hope the Master Mariner is being misreported.

    I hope he is not implying that dynamic testing should have been done on the full size boat. I imagine he is referring to dynamic testing of a MODEL. Even that would have been over the top for a fishing boat of that size (it is not done even today for many large merchant ships).

    A static inclining test to determine the stability characteristics is the best that is normally done on full size vessels. This forms the input to the ship's static stability curve (with righting levers at different angles of heel). That is the test that you guys are well familiar with.

    It is well known that this is an imperfect way to try to address the issues of a real ship moving in a real random sea - but that is nothing new - it is just the "best" that can practically be done.

    No one (not even a Master Mariner) has the power to call up at will the wind and wave conditions that would properly test the dynamic performance of a full size ship in all conditions at sea. Even with model tests, you cannot test ALL possible conditions - only a sample that you hope will catch the worst cases.

    So I think you guys are right to question this - the Master Mariner is reported as referring to a type of test that does not exist in the real world (would be nice in an ideal world). So either he is misguided (which is worrying for the outcome of the inquiry) or the reporter has picked it up wrong.

    Or, even more worrying, the Master Mariner might be referring to a simple dynamic test where you heel the vessel over (with your foot or a derrick if it is small enough) and let go. Then measure the time it takes to do a few rolls and work out the roll period. That is a poor substitute for a proper normal "static" inclining experiment which is the only accurate way to find the real centre of gravity of the ship.

    More generally, the reports of the inquiry are very worrying. It seems that common sense is going to be a loser.

  4. #14
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    Default Trident kept on despite precarious seas

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1477546

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    By Ross Davidson

    Published: 11/11/2009

    The inquiry into the sinking of the Trident heard yesterday that the trawler’s crew did not think the weather was bad enough for them to change speed or direction, despite being in “precarious” seas.

    All seven crewmen lost their lives when the Peterhead-registered fishing boat went down off the coast of Caithness on October 3, 1974.

    David Duffield, a marine surveyor and consultant, told the inquiry into their deaths yesterday that the Trident did not change speed or heading between her last-known location and the site of the wreck, despite being in what are known as “quartering seas”.

    The term is used to describe conditions when the wind and sea direction hit the rear of a boat at an angle.

    Nick Ellis, representing the Sea Fish Industry Authority at the inquiry in Aberdeen, asked Mr Duffield: “Are quartering seas the most dangerous conditions for a vessel like the Trident?”

    Mr Duffield, who is a member of the joint panel of experts appointed to review evidence after the discovery of the wreck eight years ago, said: “Yes, it is one of the most precarious seas, especially for smaller vessels.”

    Mr Ellis said: “Would a crew who had any particular concern about the handling of the boat change speed or change heading?”

    Mr Duffield said that was normal practice, since most mariners were aware of the danger of quartering seas. He agreed with Mr Ellis’s conclusion that the crew must not have had any concerns about the handling of the boat.

    Earlier, Mr Duffield told Richard Anderson, representing some of the families of the Trident’s crew, that the waves the vessel faced were “nothing like the movies”, but were “probably greater” than suggested by the first inquiry into the accident, held in 1975. Mr Duffield said: “I think our conclusion is the waves at the site were probably greater than those assumed at the original investigation, based on the evidence of the witnesses.”

    Alexander Mair, 30, of Portknockie, and Peterhead men Robert Cordiner, 36, Tom Thain, 32, Alex Ritchie, 35, George Nicol, 59, James Tait, 32, and Alex Summers, 35, all died in the sinking.

    The inquiry is expected to continue today.

  5. #15
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    Default Wave could have capsized boat

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1479637

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    By Lori Reid

    Published: 12/11/2009

    The inquiry into the sinking of the Trident heard yesterday it was “very likely” the trawler could have capsized due to a variety of wave conditions.

    The statement was made by Christean Ellar Schmittmer, who carried out a series of tests on a replica of the trawler, which sunk with the loss of seven lives 35 years ago.

    Mr Schmittmer was the project manager of a team at the Maritime Research Institute Netherlands which was asked to create a scale model of the ship by the inquiry’s joint panel of experts.

    The replica was then tested in a water tank to see how it would react to a variety of wave factors, including frequency, energy, length and height.

    Mr Schmittmer, a qualified naval architect and engineer, showed video footage of one of the tests at the inquiry in Aberdeen yesterday.

    It showed the model, which was about 5ft long inside a 460ft long water tank which was capable of simulating sea conditions. Talking the inquiry through the footage, Mr Schmittmer said: “You can see the waves are coming from the stern. You have to imagine that the model is going through the water. It looks quite quiet then you see this incident and the model rolls in the wave and capsizes.”

    The inquiry heard the model capsized in five tests, using a variety of conditions.

    Advocate general representative Ailsa Wilson QC, then read a statement, written by Mr Schmittmer in a report into the tests. It said: “The test shows it is very likely the boat would capsize in these conditions.”

    When asked if he agreed with the statement, Mr Schmittmer said: “Yes. Very likely.” He said due to different wave conditions used in each test, he was unable to say definitively what type of wave would have caused the trawler to capsize.

    All seven crewmen lost their lives when the Peterhead-registered Trawler went down off the coast of Caithness on October 3, 1974.

    Alexander Mair, 30, of Portknockie, and Peterhead men Robert Cordiner, 36, Tom Thain, 32, Alex Ritchie, 35, George Nicol, 59, James Tait, 32, and Alex Summers, 35, all died in the sinking.

    The inquiry continues today.

  6. #16
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    Default Water on deck ‘did not take down Trident’

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1480170

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    Expert answers questions on trawler’s stability during latest day of inquiry

    By Ryan Crighton

    Published: 13/11/2009

    The Trident, which went down on October 3, 1974
    More Pictures

    A DEBATE over whether or not one of Scotland’s worst fishing disasters could have been caused by water swamping a fishing boat’s deck dominated the latest day of the reopened inquiry into the sinking of the Trident.

    All seven crewmen lost their lives when the Peterhead-registered boat went down off the coast of Caithness on October 3, 1974.

    Marine expert Christean Ellar Schmittmer told the Aberdeen inquiry into their deaths yesterday that he believed water becoming trapped on the deck of the trawler was not a factor in her sinking.

    Mr Schmittmer carried out a series of tests on a replica of the boat, and was yesterday asked questions over her stability. He was the project manager of a team at the Maritime Research Institute Netherlands which was asked to create a scale model of the ship by the inquiry’s joint panel of experts.

    The replica was then tested in a water tank to see how it would react to a variety of wave factors, including frequency, energy, length and height.

    Advocate General representative Ailsa Wilson QC asked Mr Schmittmer, a qualified naval architect and engineer, about Trident taking on water.

    He said: “Nearly no water came on deck (during the model tests). In some incidents there was water, but the vessel was able to get rid of it fast. We don’t think that water on deck was a primary driver for capsize.”

    Richard Anderson, representing some of the families of the Trident’s crew, pressed the Dutchman on a number of points over the Trident’s stability.

    Mr Anderson stated: “What I suggest to you is that because the original configuration of the Trident was that it already had a low stability, the long and high roll motions trapped water on the deck of the Trident and that is why she foundered.”

    Stuart Gale QC, representing Andrew Cummings, the ship’s designer, objected to the question saying there was nothing to substantiate Mr Anderson’s claims of low stability. Mr Anderson pointed to part of Mr Schmittmer’s report which made reference to the issue.

    Mr Schmittmer replied: “It was a subjective statement from myself.”

    Peterhead men Robert Cordiner, 36, Tom Thain, 32, Alex Ritchie, 35, George Nicol, 59, James Tait, 32, and Alex Summers, 35, all died in the sinking, along with Alexander Mair, 30, of Portknockie.

    The inquiry, before Sheriff Principal Sir Stephen Young, continues at Aberdeen Town House today.

  7. #17
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    Default Expert defends Trident probe

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1482693

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    Maritime scientist tells of tests on model in tank

    By declan harte

    Published: 14/11/2009

    A marine expert defended his research methods at the inquiry into the sinking of the Trident fishing boat yesterday.

    Christean Ellar Schmittmer, of the Maritime Research Institute Netherlands, led a series of tests on a replica model in a water tank to help determine what caused the Peterhead-registered trawler to sink off the coast of Caithness on October 3, 1974.

    He was cross-examined by lawyers representing the families of the seven men who died during yesterday’s hearing at Aberdeen Town House.

    Richard Anderson, speaking on behalf of some of the relatives, scrutinised Mr Schmittmer’s tests, which recorded how the model reacted to a number of wave factors, including height, length and frequency.

    Mr Anderson asked how static and dynamic stability, which must both be in balance for a boat to remain upright, figured in the recording of results.

    Mr Schmittmer said: “They are factors of seakeeping so factors of the capsizing.

    “However, there are many other contributing factors.”

    Advocate general representative Ailsa Wilson QC asked Mr Schmittmer what made his experiments different from similar tests carried out on a model of the same boat in the 1970s.

    He said the earlier tests involved a remote-controlled model, while the most recent experiments used a model boat guided by an auto-pilot computer system.

    He said: “We eliminated the influence of the crew carrying out the study, so there is no human influence at all.”

    The inquiry’s joint panel of experts asked Mr Schmitter’s institute to carry out the tests. Earlier this week the inquiry heard the model capsized during five experiments, which ran for a total combined time of 20 hours.

    Alexander Mair, 30, of Portknockie, and Peterhead men Robert Cordiner, 36, Tom Thain, 32, Alex Ritchie, 35, George Nicol, 59, James Tait, 32, and Alex Summers, 35, all died in the sinking.

    The inquiry will continue on Monday.

  8. #18
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    Default Break for Trident sinking inquiry

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/...st/8362626.stm

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    An inquiry into the loss of a fishing boat in 1974 which claimed seven lives is set to be adjourned.

    The Trident was heading home to Peterhead when it sank off Caithness.

    Relatives of some of the seven men who died claim the Trident was unstable, rather than the boat solely being swamped by a wave.

    The inquiry, which began on 19 October, is due to finish on Tuesday. It will continue in February to hear the remaining evidence.

    The inquiry has heard it was understood the Trident started its final voyage from Troon to Peterhead in the early hours of 2 October, 1974.

    Skipper David Tait was returning to Peterhead by car so Robert Cordiner assumed command.

    Radio contact was lost with the boat on the afternoon of 3 October.

    An oil film was reported on 6 October in the original area of the last known position of the Trident.

    Mr Cordiner, Alexander Ritchie, George Nicol, James Tait, Thomas Thain, Alexander Mair and Alexander Summers died.

    Six of the crew were in their 30s, and Mr Nicol was in his 50s.

  9. #19

    Default Trident inquiry

    More official grief for the Trident families courtesy of DfT:

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6952337.ece

    regards

    Ronda

  10. #20
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    Default Trident inquiry will resume next month

    http://www.pressandjournal.co.uk/Article.aspx/1572620

    Quote Originally Posted by Press and Journal
    New statement submitted by families on how they think vessel foundered

    Published: 22/01/2010

    A PUBLIC inquiry into one of Scotland’s worst fishing disasters will resume next month.

    The inquiry into the sinking of the Peterhead-registered Trident was adjourned in November after the relatives of the men who died on board the trawler were asked to resubmit a statement explaining why they think the vessel foundered.

    A hearing at Aberdeen Sheriff Court was told yesterday a new statement had been submitted by the families and the inquiry would resume on February 22 at the city’s town house.

    The families of the disaster’s seven victims were represented by a new solicitor at the hearing, Roddy Thomson.

    Mr Thomson has been told he must submit a report by February 10 detailing the evidence which will lead his case in the inquiry.

    A spokesman for the advocate general said: “We welcome yesterday's meeting as a useful step forward for the inquiry. It is helpful for the families' representatives to have provided clarification of their position.”

    Seven men died when the trawler sank off the coast of Wick, on October 3, 1974, hours before her crew were due to return to their home port.

    An inquiry into the accident was first held in 1975 and ruled the boat had been sunk by a massive wave.

    Many of the crew’s relatives were not satisfied by the findings, however. They believe the men – Robert Cordiner, 36; Tom Thain, 32; Alex Ritchie, 35; George Nicol, 59; James Tait, 32; Alex Summers, 35, all of Peterhead, and 30-year-old Alexander Mair, of Portknockie – died because of the Trident’s instability and that the 1975 hearing was a “whitewash”.

    In 2002, the inquiry reopened after amateur divers discovered the wreck.

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