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Thread: Greenpeace

  1. #1
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    Default Greenpeace

    Are them idiot's for real or what !!! Watched the news last night in total disbeleif that anyone could be so stupid as to swim in front of a trawler (and the Endurance as well ) , hope there life insurance company's has seen this footage and ceased there policy's !!!

    Do they really know what there babbling about in the 1st place ?? I think not !!! Cod stocks have never been as healthy as they are now for years and they say there on the verge of extinction ,

    These fools should be locked up and the key thrown away for there own saftey

  2. #2

    Default

    You are quite right Ally, these people are trouble. The problem is, they are very good at "stealing" the headlines with their foolhardy antics.
    When the media ask them about what they are doing, they then have a perfect opportunity to peddle their propaganda. If they get to repeat this stuff often enough then some folks begin to believe it is true.
    We need skilled spokesmen for the industry to be putting across the other (true) side of the story.
    Best Wishes
    Douglas
    P.S. While we're here - thanks very much for the time and trouble that you (and the other regular posters) put into these great photos you put up.

  3. #3
    Davie Tait Guest

    Default This is my own personal view nothing to do with the site

    There's more Cod in the seas just now than the fishermen have seen for the last 25 years. They're having to steam up to 300nm just to get clear of them as the last thing they want to do is dump dead fish.

    Yet another greenpeace stunt. I just wish they would admit publicly that they don't want ANYONE to be allowed to catch fish simply because they're Vegitarians/Vegans. Its their hypocrasy that stuns me , they go on and on and on about pollution/etc yet all of their boats are old , have big engines , burn LOTS of diesel thus producing lots of CO2 and Sulphur-di-oxide.

    I used to support them when they helped to put an end to the indiscriminate slaughter of Whales but they no longer seem to care less about Science , they only use data if it supports their narrow view and hide/dismiss any data that goes against their "percieved truth". I have had robust "discussions" with representatives of theirs over the years and they refuse to listen to anyone with real world experience or a scientific background ( I have both ).

    The Endurance didn't stop and they failed to do anything to her. They have a very bad habit of dropping anchors / heavy weights onto fishing gear which is a direct threat to the stability and safety of the fishing vessels being targetted and I believe they have overstepped the mark too many times to be left unchallenged. Peacefull protest is one thing but reckless endangerment of fishermens lives is unacceptable.

    The real story about Cod is that Grey Seals eat more tonnage of Cod than the entire EU fleet is allowed to catch every year. The North Sea is warming up meaning the phytoplankton that is the basis of the food chain for Cod is moving North every year meaning the main spawning biomass is moving North.

    Greenpeace don't want anyone to be allowed to catch or kill anything ( be it fish , fowl or farm animals ). They have been getting worse and worse and worse in trying to shove their Vegitarian/Vegan beliefs ( to them more like a fanatical religion , they have NO INTEREST in talking or listening to those with real world experience as they are ALWAYS right in their eyes and we are all heathens who shouldn't have any say in their eyes ) down our throats.

    I have had this exact attitude from Greenpeace activists over the last 10-15 years and I have seen it getting worse and worse over that time. Even the original founder of Greenpeace now condems their actions and the way they behave as unacceptable and he has left the organisation in disgust.

    I have had 2 Greenpeace activists try to shout me down when they were claiming that 95% of all fish caught were thrown back dead as discards , i'm the wrong guy to try to argue with on this issue as I have at least done 100 Scientific Discard survey trips on commercial fishing vessels over a 9 year period and I know what the rates are ( white fish rates are 10% at worst usually around 5% until this stupid EU Commision idiots on their "green vote agenda" stop them landing the Cod that is now so plentifull which means fishermen having to dump fish and steam 300nm to get clear of Cod , Prawn discard rates vary but no more than 15% at worst around 8-10% average ).

    Greenpeace do NO FISH SURVEY WORK at all. They use "data collected" by so called independant scientists ( whom have NEVER been seen aboard fishing boats or measuring fish on the fish markets ) who are picking numbers out of thin air just to justify the "Green Agenda".

    Greenpeace are putting lives in danger , obstructing fishing vessels undertaking their legal right to fish , breaking the International Rules for Safety at Sea by ignoring the Rules of the Road ( which clearly stipulate that a fishing vessel has right of way over all other vessels when conducting fishing operations due to a severely limited ability to change course ).

    I have never seen ANY data from Greenpeace to back up any of their assertions that Cod is going to disappear ( they have refused to publish any data that could be checked by independant scientists ).

    They have never ( to my knowledge and i'm sure I would have heard had this ever happened ) gone out on commercial fishing vessels to undertake any sampling of Discard rates ( which would have to include a representative sample - usually 60-120kg depending on the size of the fish - with accurate length measurements / Otolith removal for age determination / accurate estimate of total bulk before any fish had been worked - this is done by the mate of the fishing boat and you work out by close observation how many baskets ( each 32kg ) of marketable fish are selected to each basket of discarded fish - this allows you to accurately estimate the total discards - this would be for every haul on a trip and the Seas are split up into seperate areas each needing survey work done , this is why it takes a team of 8 Scientists dedicated to the job in Scotland alone to do the work ) and which involves accurate measuring of the marketable catch ( at least 90-120kg of each selection of each species - up to 7 selections with cod , 6 with haddock , etc ) or done representative market sampling with Otolith removal to ascertain the length/age data ( which I can tell you now no fisherman would ever allow them to touch his fish and if they went onto a fishmarket without the written permission of the Harbour Master they are breaking the health and safety and health and hygene laws ).

    To get an accurate estimate on the state of the Fish stocks takes 4 quarterly surveys of the North Sea / West Coast / Irish Sea by 9 EU state Marine laboratories and Norway ( the EU ones are : Scotland , England , Eire , Denmark , Holland , Sweden , Germany , France and Spain ) doing 21 day bottom trawl surveys with the data all worked up to catch rates per 1hr ( all use the same trawl/door combination so the swept area of the gear is known so catch rates per Square Nautical Mile can be estimated ). This involves a Scientific crew of at least 8 normally 10 on each vessel. These surveys happen 4 times a year. Therefore you have 3400 tows minimum per year needing 8400 man days work per year.

    The data that Greenpeace use for fishing is , and has been for well over a decade , highly selectively taken out of some publically available information but mostly from their so-called scientific advisors ( who have no access to the EU research database ).

    The fishing fleet is in crisis simply due to incompetant EU fisheries commisioners over the last 20 years. Over the years they practically threw money at fishermen to get them to build new bigger boats then stopped the funding overnight in 1988 when they finally realised what they had done. The fishermen cannot be blamed for this , if your given large grants to replace a 25-30 year old vessel with a brand new boat you will take the new boat every time.

    The Common Fisheries Policy ( CFP ) has been a disaster from day one , for every fleet in the EU except the French ( who ignore quotas and restrictions and never seem to be fined or forced to cut back on their catches ) and the Spanish ( who have built larger boats and not declared the correct engine power thus increasing the catching power of their fleet instead of reducing it ).

    With fishermen restricted to less than 130 days fishing time a year they are forced to work in storms , have no choice but do oil work ( which directly lead to the loss with all hands of the Meridian KY147 in 2006 ) to keep the vessels going and have had to modify their gear drastically since 1996 to the point now that their discard rates are only 15% of the previous amount but because of the large mesh panels designed to allow juvenile fish to escape they also loose fish that are large enough to be landed ( around 15-20% loss depending on the gear worked ). The price of marine diesel has gone from 240 a tonne to 360 a tonne which has made things very difficult for them financially.

    I have no problem with green policies that make sense , pollution should be tackled , reliance on oil should be done away with , fish stocks do need carefull management BUT we should not delude ourselves about the real reasons for these Greenpeace stunts - money. If Greenpeace are not causing controversy and on the TV/Radio/Newspapers then they get less money coming in so yes this is all about them raising money in an entirely cynical way which has placed people in serious harms way.

    The Fishermen know what is happening out in the seas better than any scientist or eco-activist will ever know. When I was a scientist it took me 4-5 years to convince the senior guys to really listen to the Fishermen which they have been doing for 10-12 years now. I used to get accurate catch rates , where the fish were caught , told when they had come across large hauls of smaller fish , etc ,etc and that information was given freely because the Fishermen knew that I had been a fisherman myself and that the information they provided would never be told to anyone outside of the Lab.

    Its not just the fishermen who's livelyhood is on the line , its entire towns and villages. It needs 6 or 7 people working onshore ( between engineers , net makers , ship repairers , painters , grocers , butchers [ altho simply due to the prices most boats get their food from the big supermarkets now ] , shop workers [ don't forget that without the money the fishermen make furniture shops , clothes shops , car dealerships , etc , etc cannot survive ] , etc ) for each individual fisherman.

    Fraserburgh has around 600 fishermen left ( used to be 2000 ) so that means a minimum of 3600 people ashore ( 4200 jobs in total ) are dependant on what the fishermen earn at sea. In simple ecconomic terms the closure of the North Sea would mean whole towns becoming unemployment blackspots with tens of thousands of people out of work with absolutely no way to get more work as the alternative jobs will simply never be there.

    The fishing fleet has been cut by over 70% in just the last 10 years , the fleet used to be unlimited in days at sea ( some fished 300-320 days per year ) but are now limited to around 130 days per year ( name me ANY other industry that is only allowed to work for 4 months per year because of legally binding restrictions ) , the nets used to be 70mm for prawn fishing now 100mm with a 90mm square mesh panel to allow the escape of undersize fish , whitefish boats used to work 90mm nets but now work 120-140mm nets with 100mm square mesh panels to reduce small fish catches.

    The fishing effort is effectively 20% of the levels they were 10 years ago. The fishermen were not allocated enough days at sea last year to even catch the quota they were given ( only took 75% of the haddock quota ).

    No fisherman in Scotland/EU wants to destroy the very stocks that give them a living wage - and thats all it is not a fortune for the vast majority of the men - they all have boats that have loans to repay , mens wages to pay , their own younger family members coming up behind them to think about. Even earning 1000 for a 10 day trip is being paid less than the UK minimum wage ( 20-22hrs a day at times for 10 days - 200 hours - UK minimum wage 5.84 * 200 = 1168 and that is at plain time no overtime nothing extra , I once calculated my actual wage to be 2.80 per hour considered slave wages nowadays ).

    I have calculated the wages a fisherman would get at the minimum wage for a normal trip :

    Sail midnight Sunday

    Monday to Friday - 20hrs per day = 100hrs of which 48hrs are at 5.84 and 52hrs at time and a half 8.76 = 735.84
    Saturday and Sunday - 40hrs at double time 11.68 = 467.20
    Monday to Wednesday - 20 hrs per day of which 29hrs would be normal time 5.84 and 31hrs at time and a half 8.76 = 440.92
    Land Thursday morning 0100 clear from boat after all end of trip jobs 1000hrs so 2hrs at 5.84 and 7hrs at time and a half 8.76 = 73

    Total before Income tax , National Insurance = 1716.96

    That is allowing a 3hr steam on the Sunday and a 3hr steam back on the Wednesday night from fishing grounds that can have heavy fishing close to Peterhead
    Last edited by Davie Tait; 16th May 2007 at 21:41.

  4. #4
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    Default

    steady on tiger

  5. #5
    Davie Tait Guest

    Default

    Well Ally someone has to tell the Truth about whats happening out there instead of the Greenpeace nonsense

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